Derric writes:
I think History is made by those that write it,or say it in the oral
tradition of S.E. Asia.We often have to rely on the perspectives of
various instructors and verifiable history to piece together a
possible story.So in that respect history is only useful if it can
help us improve our skills.To me,personally,history stops with the
people I train with.I owe them appreciation and respect but I have
no duty to carry on the trappings of a foreign culture or people.We
can best show our appreciation to the Masters who have come before
by keeping our Arts pragmatic and not allowing them to become sport
or cultural displays,or dojo systems devoid of efficacy.

Having said that,the history of Kuntao is interesting.In my mind you
can call it what you want (kuntao,chuan fa,kung fu,wu shu,kenpo,etc)
but Chinese martial arts have clear movements and training that mark
them,regardless of the names you attach.That`s not to dismiss
history,it just helps in clarifying your training.With the
westernization of China and the Cultural Revolution,many of the CMA
Masters left China and the government sport wushu pretty much
supplanted the old styles.The new Shaolin Temple is in a different
location and is run by the government as a tourist attraction.

I don`t mean to say there are NO good CMA in China,just that there
are probably more in other parts of the world.I believe that CMA
that moved to foreign cultures that were sometimes unfriendly and
had their own indigenous styles were forced to remain or improve on
their efficacy.I believe that all martial arts started in India (as
Uncle has allways said).The Indian arts were passed into China and
changed into something very diverse and different.I think Silat is a
more direct relation to the Indian arts and was then influenced by
the Chinese arts,coming full circle.I think the syncretic Filipino
approach sort of shook the tree for the other two by allowing
experimentation as part of training,serious play,and introducing
Western combat methods and science into the mix.

Concerning styles,all serious combat arts are a window into the
ultimate truth of combat.Each window gives you a peek from a
different perspective,you need more than one window to see it all,if
you ever can.We use science to help explain some things about
generating power,speed,etc,and psychology and sociology to
understand the dynamics of combat.But there is no ultimate unifying
formula to guarantee success,to eliminate the X factor.In the final
analysis each style has a good strategy for winning,to work around
the possibility of defeat.

Anyone can take 6 months of kickboxing and grappling and be a good
fighter.These are what I call Skills of Common Denomination.We train
in the Ancient arts because,as a friend of mine says,every stupid
move died with the guy that invented it.There are skills that have
stood the test of time that we need if we are ever going to come
close to eliminating the X factor or understanding the Ultimate
Truth in combat.Is there an ultimate truth?A complete approach to
combat that guarantees success?Probably not,but it`s how we make our
journey that matters.

--- In AmericanKunTaoSilat@yahoogroups.com, <Trent7@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the history summary, Mike. Good stuff. It mirrors
what some of the texts I have here read. I have trained in some of
the Filipino silat, and it is pretty good and similar to some
Indonesian and Malaysion silat. In fact, some of Leo Gaje's silat
from Pekiti Tirsia looks extremely close to some of Sera Serak
silat. And yeah, at the advanced levels it begins to be very
similar, however, the quality of the movement will still mark a
certain practitioner and system. I've seen many good practitioners
say "Same, same" but that would mean exactly the same. And it
isn't. At the basic levels there are many differences especially in
way of movement, learning progression, training methodologies, and
uses of the same movements (i.e., applications). The differences
are easier to spot for the obvious reason, there are more of them.
The similarities become obvious only after learning that the body
can only move in certain ways under certain conditions. That
requires a bit of study. But it's also why many of our
groundfighting moves looks an awful lot like BJJ sometimes, and
wrestling takedowns sometimes, but ours have a different emphasis,
training method and mindset that reveal a totally different art as a
whole (i.e., on the ground we are looking for, or are using, a knife
and wish to get up asap, but will take a bone break if given to
us). Those things also only look similar if you've trained a bit in
the other arts.
>
> For example, some of the classical Pa Kua I've done is eerily like
some of the Sera Serak silat. Same weight transfers, ground paths,
everything, but in practice you'd never guess merely by looking at
it unless you've done both. I think it's very cool, but don't think
they are related except by some very good masters coming to the same
conclusions for fighting.
>
> And Guru Chas has repeatedly pointed out the similarities of
movement in some Chen Taiji practitioners and good silat men.
>
> I like the idea of similar arts having a different "flavor." It's
that flavor which shows the real difference in each art's approach
to combat as well as the culture which surrounds each respectively.
>
> Thanks again for the input, Mike.
>
>
> ---- Mike Casto <gurumike@...> wrote:
> > Yes, the Filipino Kuntao (though it's more commonly
spelled "Kuntaw") is somewhat related to the Kuntao in KTS ... in
the regard that both have Chinese roots.
> >
> > This history (as is common) is somewhat sketchy and hard to
trace but, in general, it's something like this. During political
unrest in China (i.e.: usually following a regime change - like from
the Ming to the Qing Dynasty in 1644 or the Qing Dynasty to the
Republic of China in 1911) the people being persecuted (often those
who supported the previous regime) would leave the country and
immigrate, often, to SE Asia. This is one of the reasons that there
is such a large Chinese population in Malaysia, Indonesia and the
Philippines.
> >
> > In some regions, like Indonesia, the Chinese immigrants weren't
well received -the Chinese & Indonesians never got along very well,
for instance. This is one of the reasons that blendings of Kuntao &
Silat are so rare. They usually happened when mixed marriages
occurred between Chinese & Indonesians - the relatives from both
sides would teach the offspring even if they didn't get along with
each other very well. Or, as is the case with Uncle, the Dutch-
Indonesians sometimes had the opportunity to learn both. They'd get
the Silat from their Indonesian relatives. Then, like Uncle, they
might have Chinese friends who they could learn from. Or, in some
cases, it was simply because they were mixed-bloods and
considered "inferior" and were largely ignored so they could
sometimes go places and do things that other people couldn't ...
talk about a double-edged sword - no body thinks you're worth paying
attention to so you're neglected but that very neglect enables you
to move around!
> > and talk to a variety of people (those who will talk to you
anyway) and find people who will teach you.
> >
> > Regarding Filipino Kuntao (or, as I said, it's usually spelled
Kuntaw), as far as I understand it, Kuntaw is primarily found in the
southern P.I. ... and there's quite a bit of Silat there, too. And
there's even some mixture between the two. From my reading, the
Filipinos and the Chinese didn't have as much strife between them,
overall, as the Indonesians & Chinese did. So there was much more
sharing between the communities.
> >
> > But this also meant that Kuntaw evolved and, essentially, became
a very Filipino entity. Same with the Kuntaw/Silat blends when
they're found. The flavor is very different from the Kuntao & Silat
found in Indonesia because the
> > Filipinos are so very good at adopting & adapting. As a people,
they tend to be very ingenious when it comes to bringing elements
into their culture and adapting them to fit smoothly with the rest
of their culture.
> >
> > Kuntaw & Kuntaw/Silat blends are their own trees with their own
sap, bark and leaves. But they do connect to the same root system
from which KTS developed so there are as many similarities as
differences. But, as usual, the differences are far easier to spot
than the similarities.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ********** Original Email *********
> > ** To: AmericanKunTaoSilat@yahoogroups.com
> > ** From: Trent7@...
> > ** Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:05:29
> > **********
> >
> > Hello Dave,
> > Things have become very quiet here lately. I hope the world is
treating you well.
> >
> > Although things have been quiet here, the gurus have been very
busy with plans creating a venue for seminars, more detailed
training DVDs, and coming up with other ways to allow the public to
see the art.
> >
> > I was looking at another web forum, Martial Talk, where it
mentioned that "kuntao" was fairly popular where they were (the
northeast U.S.). After e-mailing them a bit, it turns out that
their kuntao was Filipino based and while it is no doubt related
somehow in the mysteries of time, it was nothing like ours. They
also had no silat component. So, make no mistake, the art as handed
down from Uncle Bill to Sigung Steve Gartin and Sigung Chas Clements
is definitely unique in its approach, concepts and methodologies.
> >
> > I searched for approximately 15 years going through numerous
arts (studying or sparring and I didn't start searching until after
being involved for awhile), and there are very few arts that
approach ours in completeness and effectiveness. In fact, I haven't
seen one yet, but I'm always open to new things.
> >

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